'Donahue' for Nov. 12 , 2002 -- Complete transcript

Guests: Roger Barnett, Glen Spencer, Robin Hoover, Sue Goodman, Bonnie
Eggle, Bob Eggle, Al Sharpton, Shokriea Yaghi, Frank Sharry, Jesus Medrano

ANNOUNCER: Tonight. America's borders, tightly guarded since the 9/11 terror attacks. Some say not tight enough. Others say they just want a chance at the American dream.
Should America take the lock-down off its borders? Are we susceptible to another terrorist attack?
Tonight, the realities of immigration in America, with real stories from real people. DONAHUE starts right now.
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening, and welcome to DONAHUE.

Tonight, should America close its borders? Is our national security at risk because of our immigration policy?
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONAHUE (voice-over): For many years, Lady Liberty invited huddled masses to our shores. But in the aftermath of September 11, and with an estimated eight million undocumented workers already in the United States, some Americans are demanding we close our doors, station troops at the borders, and put a freeze on all visas.
Others say we should not allow our fears to create an anti-immigration backlash. The foundation of our country was built on immigrants, and we should not turn anybody away, especially immigrants who risk their lives on life-threatening missions on boats or treks through deserts, desperately seeking a better life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DONAHUE: Never forget, is what that says.
We are joined from Washington by MSNBC's own Patrick Buchanan, who thinks that absorbing all those immigrants will swap American culture and bring Third World chaos inside our borders. We'll hear from him shortly.
But first, this is Roger Barnett, an Arizona rancher who patrols his property on the border of Mexico and rounds up illegal immigrants.
Roger, what motivates you to do this? How many acres do you have?
ROGER BARNETT, ARIZONA RANCHER: I have 22,000 on the border there.
DONAHUE: This is a cattle operation?
BARNETT: A cattle operation, yes.
DONAHUE: Right. And you look out your window every day and what do you see?
BARNETT: Just trails coming through there. Trash they're leaving. It's unbelievable. They're cutting my water lines. They're tearing up the fences. Stealing stuff.
DONAHUE: How many would you say in a month? Well, give me a year.
What's your best figure? Your most accurate?
BARNETT: I would say there's 100 to 200 coming through my place every day. Every day.
DONAHUE: Every day.
BARNETT: Yes, sir.
DONAHUE: Now these would be not just adults, I assume. We're talking, in many ways, families?
BARNETT: Families, some of them. Yes. Some children. Two years old, 2 months old. It's just all the way up like that. I've seen everything.
DONAHUE: Right. This ranch is in Arizona, we should say, to be clear.
BARNETT: Yes.
DONAHUE: You take some heat for this, Mr. Barnett. People see you as sort of the old Wild West, take the law into your own hands kind of vigilante guy. And to that, you would say?
BARNETT: I have to. My U.S. government has let us down, let the whole nation down. They have not guarded the borders. There's nobody on the borders.
DONAHUE: Let's take a look at what it looks like at your place. Here you are. I don't know, how shall we say this? You're not a member of any official constabulary. But apparently, you are on patrol.
Watch.
BARNETT: I take care of my own...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER: Roger, where did you find them? Where did they find them?
BARNETT: Right here. Two more back up in there.
SPENCER: Yes. Were they walking up the fence line here?
BARNETT: No. They were laying down.
SPENCER: They were laying down hiding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DONAHUE: What do you-You haven't shot anybody, have you?
BARNETT: No, I haven't.
DONAHUE: The dogs are for just what? Just scent and finding people.
BARNETT: They assist, yes they do.
DONAHUE: And then you call, what, the border patrol?
BARNETT: I call the border patrol, yes.
DONAHUE: And they come and take them away?
BARNETT: That's correct.
DONAHUE: Where do they take them?
BARNETT: They take them back to their station in the Douglas area, process them, put them across the line, the Mexicans. And then other people, I guess they take them to other places like that where they can deport them.
DONAHUE: All right. Glen Spencer, you're the founder and executive director of American Patrol. You appreciate, do you not, what Mr. Barnett is doing?
GLEN SPENCER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN PATROL: There's no question about it. Roger has demonstrated, and he actually uses high technology. Roger has demonstrated that you can detect and you can stop illegal aliens from coming into the United States.
DONAHUE: But you're not suggesting that all private citizens affected in that area do the same thing, are you?
SPENCER: What we're suggesting is that the border patrol do the same thing. You know, Roger has these sensors that he's put into his ranch. And they send out signals.
I was there that weekend when that film was taken. And he went out and found these people. We also know that the border patrol has these sensors out there. But when they go off, they don't respond.
Roger has demonstrated that we have the technology to stop this invasion, but for some reason, our nation can't stop millions of people from flooding into the United States. And I think the American people need to know why.
DONAHUE: We are also joined on the stage by the Reverend Robin Hoover and his wife, Sue Goodman.
You are founders of Humane Borders.
REV. ROBIN HOOVER, HUMANE BORDERS: Yes, we are.
DONAHUE: Well, you would not be offended if I said you're doing the Lord's work, would you?
HOOVER: I think we are.
DONAHUE: What are you doing? Establishing, among other things, you establish water stations.
HOOVER: Yes.
DONAHUE: So that the people, for example, on his ranch, don't die of dehydration.
HOOVER: Well, we don't have any water stations on his property, but all across the federal installations, National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Bureau of Land Management, some private property, and some ranches, we have 36 major water stations out there. Marked by a flag and migrants use the water.
DONAHUE: You use a blue flag.
HOOVER: Yes, sir.
DONAHUE: On a poll that's about 30 feet.
HOOVER: Yes.
DONAHUE: So that those who are pedestrians crossing the desert, often with families, in the searing heat of the Southwest, will have literally, life-saving water.
HOOVER: Yes, sir.
DONAHUE: And you do this because...?
HOOVER: We do this because we're a faith community that thinks that it's absolutely wrong for us to have a set of policies that will lead to so many deaths: 263 in our sector this year.
DONAHUE: Right. We've got a rancher here who might think of that as enticement. "Hey, you all. Come in here. Come on to my property. I'll even give you water."
What would you say?
SUE GOODMAN, HUMANE BORDERS: The people are not enticed by water. When they come here, they are rewarded with a job. The motivation for someone coming from Mexico to the United States is to work.
And you just saw pictures of a family. There are so many children. There were 30,000 children apprehended this past year. Those numbers are way up. There were 163 deaths.
Here's a picture of three children. There was a group of eight siblings. They were transported in a car. These three little ones were in the trunk. And the smallest one was unresponsive.
We find evidence of children in the desert. You see these Batman pajamas? A 4-year-old went without his pajamas the next night. And we find dolls, we find diapers, we find feminine hygiene products.
So the people who are actually coming are going through great, tremendous suffering just to get here to work for us.
DONAHUE: Right. We have a significant death toll, don't we?
HOOVER: Yes.
DONAHUE: What are the numbers? Do you know?
HOOVER: This year in the Tucson sector, we're at 163. You combine the various jurisdictions and so you'll get slightly different numbers. Some die on the Mexico side.
So over the last 10 years, Phil, there's been one person a day die on our border crossing.
DONAHUE: Right. And the pajamas, the Batman and this, you found a mother-a dead mother actually with a baby at the breast?
GOODMAN: Yes. In June of 2000, Yolanda Gonzales Garcia (ph), 18-years-old, with an infant. She couldn't keep up with the group as they were traveling, and so the group went ahead.
When someone went back to try to find them, the mother was dead on the ground with the baby nursing her.
SPENCER: Had the border patrol had done its job, they wouldn't have died.
DONAHUE: Say again, please?
SPENCER: If the border patrol had done its job, using the technology that is available to us, we could stop these people at the border. But there is a policy of our government, of benign neglect, of I call it malfeasance, that allows this to happen.
DONAHUE: Yes. Your point is more members-higher budget, more members of the border patrol, and we can fix this problem?
SPENCER: Better management in Washington.
DONAHUE: Yes. Pat Buchanan, do you agree?
PAT BUCHANAN, CO-HOST, "BUCHANAN & PRESS": Certainly. Look. It's a tragedy what's happened in the desert when those people are coming in and dying.
But Phil, let me tell you this basically. If the government of the United States enforced the laws of the United States, you had a security fence all along that border, you had the border patrol at these water stations to apprehend those folks when they came in. Give them water. Give them food. And bus them back across the border. You would not have people dying and the borders of the United States would be secure.
We would not have 10 million illegal aliens in this country. We would not have 300,000 deportees here who have disappeared into our population.
DONAHUE: And you'd have billions of dollars of crops rotting in the field, because there would be nobody to harvest them.
BUCHANAN: Well, we know the big farmers could raise wages enough to get folks off welfare out there to do that job the way they used to do it.
Phil, when you were in Notre Dame, the crops got picked.
DONAHUE: By..?
BUCHANAN: By white boys.
DONAHUE: Anglos picked-Anglos will harvest the lettuce and tomatoes...
BUCHANAN: Well, sure.
DONAHUE: And get down in the dirt like that?
BUCHANAN: Well, if they don't do it, pay them $10, $20 an hour. Let the free market work. We never had problems picking crops in this country before.
DONAHUE: That is the familiar voice of Pat Buchanan, who returns-
What is it, sir?
HOOVER: A free market is hindered by borders. The "Wall Street Journal" has argued for open borders for 30 years on the editorial opinion.
SPENCER: We could get our country down to 10 cents an hour by doing that ...
The "Wall Street Journal" is anti-American. That's slave labor out there. I don't think the American people want to work the slave labor wages; I don't think that at all.
BUCHANAN: Of course not. We shouldn't have people working in this country for $2 an hour when minimum wage is over $5 an hour. The "Wall Street Journal" is the handmaiden of big corporations and agri-business, and it wants the cheapest possible labor in America.
DONAHUE: How do you criticize my favorite newspaper like that, Patrick?
We'll be back with all these folks in just a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think that America should close its borders because it's part of our foundation and the melting pot of this country is based upon. And my family came here, and I consider myself American. And then my nationality is second. I consider myself American first. And I feel lucky to be here. It's wonderful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Next on DONAHUE: A park ranger murdered by an illegal immigrant. Now his parents want tougher patrolling of our borders.
And later, a family torn apart. A father forced to leave his family behind when he was deported after 9/11.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: Immigration, borders, who gets in, who gets out. I think we ought to close our borders.
We are a nation of immigrants. If it weren't for open borders, our own parents would have never arrived here. So let's control our borders more... Well, except that what do we mean by control?
Well, Chris Eggle was a young park ranger who was murdered by an illegal immigrant on the U.S./Mexican border. I'm joined now by his parents: Bonnie and Bob Eggle.
Well, for you this argument is really moot. It's too late for you, and what a sad, sad, sad story. Your son was an Eagle scout.
BONNIE EGGLE, MOTHER OF SLAIN PARK RANGER: Right.
DONAHUE: He was just everything you wanted him to be. And raised in where?
BONNIE EGGLE: Kandaloff (ph), Michigan.
DONAHUE: In Michigan. Tell me what happened to him.
BONNIE EGGLE: Before I tell you what happened, I'd like to tell you a little bit about him, if you wouldn't mind.
DONAHUE: Please.
BONNIE EGGLE: He was a wonderful young man who had such a gracious heart. He was an Eagle Scout, he was a class valedictorian of his high school class. He was a leader in many areas through his community. He was a cross-country, an amazing runner in cross country and track.
And I think that the thing that my husband and my family and I would like to say more than anything about him is that he was a kind, conscientious, loving, giving, caring Christian lad who would never hurt anything. He respected God's world, and he respected what we were about as a nation.
DONAHUE: And he was also a member of the border patrol?
BONNIE EGGLE: Not the border patrol. He was a member of the National Park Service law enforcement. He was a ranger.
DONAHUE: How did he die?
BONNIE EGGLE: The day he died, he was called out with the border patrol to assess a problem of, a problem that had come from Mexico. And the Mexican police had called for assistance because they said that they could not apprehend these felons who were coming into the United States of America.
They did not inform the border patrol and the law enforcement officers of the National Park Service that these people had already murdered, brutally murdered, four people from a drug cartel the night before. So we did not get all of the information, my son and the friends of his who had gone out on this mission.
So as they went out, these murderers had been pushed into America. And of course, they easily crossed because there is no border. There's a barbed wire fence that's broken down, and there are holes all through it. And so they easily got into the United States.
And they hid. They hid under the bushes. And as my son was going out on his mission, one of the murderers brutally attacked him with his AK-47 and blew a hole in him. And he died.
DONAHUE: That was a long rifle. And it was able to bring him down from a distance. Your son was in a war zone.
BONNIE EGGLE: Yes, he was.
DONAHUE: And I think you're arguing, aren't you, Dad, that he was not trained for this in the proper way? You have your own military history, do you not?
BOB EGGLE, FATHER OF SLAIN PARK RANGER: I have military history, yes.
DONAHUE: And what is your grievance then, as you try to-as you mourn your son's loss?
BOB EGGLE: My grievance is that there's a problem here that's not being looked at.
I was able to return twice to Oregon Pipe Cactus where he worked and go to the spot where he fell. Twice I have knelt and prayed there at that spot where he fell and bled to death.
And in sight of a hole in the border, a major hole where these murderers drove through to then murder him, and there's a problem.
I don't know all of the solutions, but there's a major problem that I challenge you, Mr. Donahue, and the American media to broadcast. And examine this much more closely.
That there's a major, major problem here that's resulted in the murder of my son and the death of many people in the desert, because it's out of control. It's chaos. I can even say it's obscene. And it needs to be looked at and focused on.
I am outraged that there was no outrage expressed by our government. By the Department of Interior, by the Congress or Senate or the White House, even. No one expressed an outrage that there could be a law enforcement officer, a federal officer, killed on the American border in our U.S. territory. Not even hit the news. No outrage by our government.
DONAHUE: We will continue. Your outrage is understood, sir. We truly do. And we're hoping that we will make a small contribution toward some kind of resolution in memory, if for no other reason than memory of your son's death.
We'll be back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: When DONAHUE continues, Al Sharpton takes on Pat Buchanan regarding America's post-9/11 immigration policy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We're talking about immigration. Are American borders unsafe, and is it time too close them?
Patrick Buchanan, you listened to the Eggle tragedy. You wanted to say?
BUCHANAN: I wanted to say that this horrible tragedy of a fine young American occurred because the American borders are undefended.
We have thousands of troops defending the borders of Kosovo, Korea and Kuwait, but no American troops defending the borders of Arizona, Texas, and California.
We have an invasion of our country, Phil. They are killing some Americans. John Malvo comes in as a stow-away. Kills a dozen people right here in our own neighborhood.
When is the government of the United States going to enforce the laws and do its duty to defend the borders?
DONAHUE: Perhaps Reverend Al Sharpton will make a contribution to that.
REV. AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: I think that first of all, I think that anyone that would not sympathize with these parents would be out of their minds. I think that clearly, what happened there is something that no one should not share the outrage.
I think the question is that we cannot have selective policing of the border. Because it seems that the government clearly polices the borders when it comes to Haitians.
And I think that what we're asking for is a fair and equal treatment at the border. We're not asking for there not to be standards. We're not even asking for there not to be enforcement.
But you can't, on one hand, say we're going to open the doors of the nation to one nationality and close it to another.
DONAHUE: I think Patrick agrees.
SHARPTON: That's where civil rights comes into play.
DONAHUE: I think you agree, Patrick.
BUCHANAN: I agree with that. But there is an exception with regard to Cubans. Those ones that came in, listen, Phil. If those folks in that plane had been spotted by the Cuban Air Force, they'd be dead in the Florida straits.
Fidel Castro murders people who try escape from his country. Those are political refugees.
Economic refugees should go to the embassy, sign up, obey the laws, and come in on a regular schedule. They can't break into our country.
DONAHUE: Yes, please.
HOOVER: The country does not have the political will or the financial resources to close the border using militarization problems-technologies. It would destroy a lot of our pristine Western fragile desert. We cannot quite get in there just yet.
What we had to do, my point is that we need to have a major political solution so that the migration that does occur is legal. It goes through the ports of industry.
DONAHUE: And the migrants can take part in society.
SPENCER: Please, if I could...
DONAHUE: Please, what is the point?
SPENCER: No political will. Seventy percent of the American people want that border control. Seventy percent want the military. I talked to...
DONAHUE: I'm going to give you a chance to finish your point when we come back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: When DONAHUE returns, a woman's story of how her family was torn apart when her immigrant husband was jailed and later deported. The heart-breaking story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: Tonight: Should America close its borders? The fight over immigration. We'll hear from a woman whose husband was deported and a Mexican immigrant who is now living the American dream, with a business that makes over $17 million a year. After the news from MSNBC.
(NEWSBREAK)
DONAHUE: Since the events of September 11 - we are, incidentally, talking about immigration, who gets in, who gets out. And since the events of September 11, there's been a move to tighten and protect America's borders. Part of that move has resulted in the detention and deportation of over 1,000 immigrants.
Joining us now is Shokriea Yaghi, whose Jordanian husband was detained and deported after September 11, after his neighbor claimed he made an anti-American comment. She's now fighting for her husband's right to return to the United States. Shokriea and her three children are all American citizens.
Why did your husband get deported, Shokriea?
SHOKRIEA YAGHI, HUSBAND DEPORTED AFTER 9/11: He-someone tipped the FBI, saying that he had anti-American views. So they came and picked him up for questioning, and then he was detained for eight-and-a-half months before...
DONAHUE: Being sent back to Jordan?
YAGHI: They sent him back secretly.
DONAHUE: Right. What state were you residing in at the time this happened?
YAGHI: New York.
DONAHUE: And you-you fled Afghan-Soviet war, didn't you.
YAGHI: Yes.
DONAHUE: As a child.
YAGHI: Yes. And I lost a large part of my family trying to do so, as well.
DONAHUE: Right. And when he was incarcerated here, were you permitted to visit him? And what was that like?
YAGHI: No. He was allowed to make one 15-minute phone call a month, and that was to his lawyer. I was not able to see him. I had to fill out an application to be-to be-if it was OK for me to go and see him. And I never received a response back for that.
DONAHUE: Right.
YAGHI: I wasn't able to see him. I was not-he was picked up in October of 2001. I wasn't able to speak to him until mid-May of 2002.
DONAHUE: Right. How was he treated in jail?
YAGHI: Horribly. He was in isolation for six months and in the solitary confinement. He had a small window to look outside, but that was painted shut. He had absolutely no accessibility to medical treatment...
DONAHUE: Right.
YAGHI: ... which he needed. He was videotaped 24 hours a day. He was in his cell 23 hours.
DONAHUE: Do you emphasize with the commentary here of Americans who appreciate that this is an immigrant country, but they are saying everybody can't live here. As you sit here, as an Afghani-as an Afghan-born citizen...
YAGHI: I believe that there-control, yes. I know that for myself, I know what Afghanistan was like when I was there. I wouldn't be here today if I was over there. My father died. My brother died when he was 15 years old. So I know exactly what was going on. And yes, I do believe that there needs to be freedom for people.
DONAHUE: Right.
YAGHI: And they do-I know that most people come to this country for a better life.
DONAHUE: Yes, they do.
YAGHI: That is what they come for, but...
DONAHUE: Yes. You have your three children all by yourself now.
YAGHI: Yes. I have three boys to raise by myself.
DONAHUE: Yes. What do you tell them about their father?
YAGHI: My oldest one knows, but he doesn't understand what September 11 has to do with us because my husband was-he-there was never any charges against him. He was innocent, and he is innocent. My other younger ones, they just think that Daddy's away visiting Grandma.
DONAHUE: Frank Sharry joins us. Mr. Sharry, you are executive director of the National Immigration Forum. Well, you're listening in on commentary that you've heard-you hear every day of your life. What would you want to share with this audience now?
FRANK SHARRY, NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM: I think it's too simplistic to say whether we should have closed or open borders. We should have smart borders. We're a nation of immigrants. We're also a nation of laws. What we have right now, though, is that our laws aren't realistic.
Take the example of illegal immigration from Mexico and the problems at the border. The people describing the situation on the border are right. It is chaos. The problem is, we don't have enough legal channels for people. Do you think those workers who come across the border take care of our elderly and take care of our children would rather come with legal visas in urban areas or pay smugglers to come across and risk their life in the desert? It's not even close.
That's what President Bush and President fox of Mexico are talking about: cooperate on border safety and security, legal channels for workers and family members, an orderly system of immigration. We can be a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws, and that would be a fine tribute to our traditions.
DONAHUE: Patrick, you agree?
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: I think this. If we have the laws on the book, and we do, they ought to be enforced by the president of the United States as chief executive. They are not being enforced. If we want to change the laws the way Frank wants, let's do it the right way, through the Congress of the United States. What we ought not tolerate is an invasion of this country from Mexico condoned and supported by the president of Mexico and not opposed by the president or Congress of the United States. That's what we can't continue.
SHARRY: Pat, we've listened to you for 15 years say if we just got tough and we operated unilaterally, we'd get control of our borders. Your strategy has failed miserably.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Our strategy hasn't been tried, Frank! Our strategy hasn't even been tried!
SHARRY: The reason it has failed...
DONAHUE: One second. Patrick what? Patrick?
BUCHANAN: Our strategy hasn't even been tried! It was put out there in San Diego. You put the Buchanan fence there. You don't got massive immigration there. That's why it's in Douglas, Arizona, now!
(CROSSTALK)
SPENCER: We have smart borders! We just have dumb people implementing the policy! You know, I was-that's right! You know, Bob Eggle told me just before we went on the show, he said, yes, they have sensors down there on the border, just like Roger Barnett had. What did you tell me, Bob?
BOB EGGLE: They don't have the law enforcement people to respond to them.
SPENCER: You were there when the sensors went off.
BOB EGGLE: I was there when the sensors went off.
SPENCER: And what happened?
BOB EGGLE: I was there in September, when we picked up a dead alien in the desert that had died because of lack of water.
SHARPTON: No, but I think, Phil, that we do have the law. We're not doing what we should, in terms of assigning them, because law enforcement picked up her husband. Let's go back to how we started this segment.
DONAHUE: Yes.
SHARPTON: Law enforcement is in Miami dealing with the Haitians. We're being very selective on where we use law enforcement. Let's not play games with the American people.
DONAHUE: Yes.
SHARPTON: And I think the danger is when anyone can call the FBI and say someone made an anti-American statement, and they send them back to Jordan. I think Pat Buchanan makes anti-American statements. Nobody's going to deport him!
(LAUGHTER)
SPENCER: Phil, I was in Roger Barnett's office two weeks ago...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Wait a minute. Patrick wanted to say, now that you've been insulted. Go get 'em, Patrick. Go ahead.
BUCHANAN: Look-look...
SHARPTON: Speak before they come pick you up, Pat!
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Listen, now! If I recall, Al, you were down in that jail in Puerto Rico, weren't you?
SHARPTON: No, I was...
BUCHANAN: You were...
SHARPTON: ... in the United States.
BUCHANAN: ... disobeying the law! They put you in the United States.
SHARPTON: Yes.
BUCHANAN: Let me say this. I ask...
SHARPTON: They brought me closer to home.
BUCHANAN: ... only that we enforce the laws of the United States. If we had, John Malvo wouldn't have murdered 12 people right up where I grew up, Al!
SHARPTON: We should...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We should not have anybody...
BUCHANAN: ... would have let him in!
SHARPTON: ... murdering people. But let's not act like everybody...
BUCHANAN: This is the type of guy that...
SHARPTON: ... that tries to come to this country is a murderer!
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: We got two veterans stepping all over each other here. I want to make sure you're both heard. Mr. Buchanan speaks of the Reverend Sharpton's jail term. You did some time there. How many?
SHARPTON: I did 90 days for protesting a Navy base. And if Mr. Buchanan protested, I'm sure that they would love to give him 90 days. It has nothing to do with immigration.
DONAHUE: This was protesting...
BUCHANAN: Listen-listen...
DONAHUE: ... the practice bombing at Vieques. Yes?
BUCHANAN: If it were George Bush, Phil, I'd have gotten 180 days.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: And I would have visited you, Pat. But the idea is...
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: ... that I think what we're saying is that we cannot say that there's not enforcement. I agree with him, it is not smart enforcement. It is not dispersing our law enforcement people properly, where we end up with a situation like this young lady, and we end up with a situation that does not remedy what the problem is.
SPENCER: One million...
SHARPTON: We need to have smart enforcement of the law.
SPENCER: One million illegal aliens make it past the Tucson sector of the border patrol each year. One million. And when Roger Barnett spoke out-I was in his office two weeks ago. Two FBI agents came in. What did they tell you, Roger?
BARNETT: They told me my life was in danger. There's going to be a hit man out. If they don't hit me, they're going to kidnap my wife.
DONAHUE: You're the ranger who patrols his own property, and when you see illegals coming across, you have your own-you spent $30,000, I understand...
BARNETT: That's correct. You bet.
DONAHUE: ... to get equipment that would allow you to-you have dogs which uncover illegal aliens crossing your multi-thousand-acre ranch near the border.
BARNETT: Yes. I have sensors. I have sensors like that.
DONAHUE: Now, here we have...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: They're threatening his life. Well...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Let us understand the chaos here.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: We have private citizens out there doing the work that's supposed to be done by authorized, sworn-in officials of the United States. We already have seen parents who've lost a child in this chaos, a very achieving young man. Holy cow! Eagle Scout. Everything was perfect about him. He's dead because of the chaos down there.
And to these agonies, you would say what, Mr. Sharry?
SHARRY: We have to have the will to enforce our laws, and we need to have laws that are smart and realistic. If we gave a couple of more visas to workers and family members, we could put the smugglers out of business. We could demand more cooperation.
SPENCER: Fox wants...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARRY: We could solve the problem.
SPENCER: ... not 2, 8 million!
DONAHUE: You speak of the president of Mexico.
(CROSSTALK)
SPENCER: You know what this is? This is an invasion of the United States!
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: And you have-hold on just one second. Let's...
SHARPTON: You can't (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
DONAHUE: No, you can't.
SHARPTON: You can't take the...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Now, let us give a respectful moment here to the do-gooders among us, who-not getting rich providing water stations for illegals crossing the hot desert, literally keeping people alive.
You wanted to say?
HOOVER: A lot of the traffic is southbound. It always has been. It's not always a net increase here. We only get about 350,000 net increase in undocumented people...
DONAHUE: Right.
HOOVER: ... each year. They're killing each other out here, under the circumstances. The environmentalists, the ranchers, the medical people out here, everybody's hemorrhaging with damage and expense, and we're spending $1 million a day in Tucson sector on border patrol. If we took all of those resources and did some economic development on the other side of the border, there'd be a lot less people coming.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: And we'll be back-I'll give you a chance. We'll be back in just a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not believe we should close our borders. I think that's part of the great beauty of America. is the diversity that is given us by the different cultures.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow, the Atkins diet, a source of controversy since its arrival on America's fitness scene. Some swear by it while others swear it can kill you. Does Atkins really work?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We're talking about tightening America's borders, how to do it in the most fair way possible.
Yes?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I would just like to know what makes somebody choose to come in illegally versus legally?
SHARRY: I can take a crack at that.
DONAHUE: Try it.
SHARRY: If there's a legal visa, people prefer to come legally. The fact is, is that there are more available jobs in this country than there are legal visas for people who want to come in and fill them. So what's the solution? Do we say, well, let's call everybody that wants to come in and work a lawbreaker, or do we make it legal for more of those people to come in, so that they can work legally...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: What's wrong with that?
SPENCER: The reason they come in illegally is because it's so simple. They can get past the border patrol. And if they get caught, they just turn them around and they come back in again. The problem is, we don't have law enforcement in this country!
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Any persistent attempt at crossing will make it, but it's not easy to walk 80 miles without water.
SHARPTON: And that does not solve the problem that he raises of making laws that are based on human need, as well as regulating this country. You clearly can't have open borders...
SPENCER: We have those laws!
(CROSSTALK)
SPENCER: We've already had this debate!~
SHARPTON: ... and not be selective. We have...
SPENCER: We had this debate...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We may have had the debate, but we haven't come to a just conclusion.
DONAHUE: Patrick?
BUCHANAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Sharpton talking about? There's seven million unemployed in this country - 10 percent of the black community's unemployed. He wants our borders open so folks can come in...
SHARPTON: No, I want our borders...
BUCHANAN: ... and take away the jobs...
SHARPTON: ... fair. I want our borders...
BUCHANAN: ... from working-class Americans!
SHARPTON: ... fair. I don't want to see selective border patrols, and I don't want to see selective...
BUCHANAN: Al...
SHARPTON: ... law enforcement.
BUCHANAN: Al, we got...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: This is an exclusive. Pat Buchanan is now speaking for the black unemployed?
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: We got-Al...
SPENCER: Well, somebody better talk for them because you're not!
BUCHANAN: We've got...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Hold on. Gentlemen...
BUCHANAN: Eight million illegal aliens! How many more do you want?
DONAHUE: Yes, sir?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: In this day and age, with the technology and the education-when I started, a policeman only had an 8th-grade education. Now you have to be a college graduate. With all this, you know, education and all, and we still have a problem, a small problem. You know, we're talking about, Should we stop-but let's talk about what's here now.
In my town, only 19 miles out of Philadelphia, we have quite a few Mexicans coming into town, and the crime rate goes up...
DONAHUE: Well...
AUDIENCE MEMBER: ... not necessarily because of their stealing.
DONAHUE: You know...
AUDIENCE MEMBER: They're getting robbed because they don't put the money in the bank because...
DONAHUE: They used to say that about the Irish.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, they said it about the Italians, too.
DONAHUE: Yes, they did. I mean, we've all been through this.
(LAUGHTER)
DONAHUE: Let me just give you another look at this. Joining us now is Jesus Medrano. He's the epitome of the American dream. After illegally crossing the United States-Mexican border, he's now a multi-millionaire.
Welcome. Jesus, how'd this all come about? How old were you when you came...
JESUS MEDRANO, OWNER, COCAL LANDSCAPE: I was 19 years old.
DONAHUE: You got a job doing lawns and raking and trimming and mowing.
MEDRANO: I got a job making $2 an hour, pushing the mower. I was lucky to run into wonderful American people with big hearts. And there was a great man that crossed my road. Anyway...
DONAHUE: Right. What is the company that you formed, Jesus?
MEDRANO: I worked there 20 years, but then I decided that I wasn't going anywhere. I was touching the ceiling. So I decided to do start my own company back in 1993. I went in partners with an American man, a great person. And today, we're touching somewhere around $17 million.
DONAHUE: You do $17 million gross dollars a year with your company, which is a lawn and garden agency.
MEDRANO: Yes. We do landscape...
DONAHUE: What's the name? We'll give you a-Cocal...
MEDRANO: Cocal...
DONAHUE: Cocal Landscape, is it?
MEDRANO: Cocal Landscape.
DONAHUE: Yes. How many people work for you?
MEDRANO: During peak season, we got about 360 people.
DONAHUE: Yes. Are you illegal, Jesus?
MEDRANO: No. I was...
DONAHUE: You're now legal...
MEDRANO: ... only illegal for two years. I married a wonderful...
DONAHUE: Right. Well, you're sitting here...
MEDRANO: ... American woman.
DONAHUE: You're listening to this.
MEDRANO: Yes.
DONAHUE: I-just seconds. What-what do you want to-what should we do?
MEDRANO: Well, I agree that we ought to control...
DONAHUE: That's an unfair question.
SPENCER: Jesus, do you hire illegal aliens?
DONAHUE: Do you hire illegals? He'll answer that when we come back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Thursday on DONAHUE: How safe are our skies? With federal mandates for heightened airline security approaching, is it any safer to fly now than it was a year ago? Real stories from real people on airline safety in America.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: Welcome back. Immigration is the issue, who gets in and who gets out. And it is chaotic, especially in the Southwest-everybody acknowledges that-and everyplace else.
You're the millionaire. You're the man from Mexico, came here as a young man. You worked hard, and now you have your own company, doing $17 million a year as a landscaper.
Do you hire illegals?
MEDRANO: Not normally. We have a program...
DONAHUE: You do or you don't?
MEDRANO: I don't. Without me knowing.
DONAHUE: Oh, without you knowing.
MEDRANO: But we have a program where we bring...
SPENCER: Yes, right. That's what they all say.
MEDRANO: ... guest workers.
SPENCER: That's what they all say!
MEDRANO: We bring over guest workers.
SPENCER: I don't know about it!
MEDRANO: And we bring them in legally...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Mr. Sharry, please?
SHARRY: The problem is, is that our policies are so restrictive that it's created a black market in migration, with smugglers and fake documents.
(CROSSTALK)
SPENCER: ... being overwhelmed!
SHARRY: He doesn't know. The fact is...
SPENCER: We're being overwhelmed!Daschle
SHARRY: The fact is...
SPENCER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) restrictive.
SHARRY: The fundamental disagreement...
SPENCER: What Frank Sharry wants is the borders fully open and the United States to be sacrificed on the altar of globalism!
SHARRY: I'm quite...
SPENCER: And he's paid to do that!
SHARRY: I'm quite competent to...
SPENCER: He can come down to my place...
SHARRY: ... finish my own sentences.
(CROSSTALK)
SPENCER: Come on, Frank! Come on down to the ranch and watch the United States being invaded!
DONAHUE: Nobody can understand anybody. Mr. Sharry? You were...
SHARRY: The fundamental disagreement's whether immigration's good for this country or not. We think it's good for this country. It's been a defining feature of our country for 400 years. It should be done legally and orderly in a way that allows people to come and make the contributions that Jesus Medrano has made.
SPENCER: The American people want the borders controlled!
DONAHUE: Yes...
SPENCER: They want our laws enforced!
DONAHUE: Right.
SPENCER: Americanpatrol.com is down there working with Roger Barnett and other ranchers to get the truth to the American people. And I want to thank you for having this show because I think you made a big step in that direction.
DONAHUE: Yes, please? Reverend?
HOOVER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) so many people die in our desert, it's a moral indictment of our lack of imagination. We're going to have to take death out of the immigration equation, whether it's in law enforcement or anybody else...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Patrick?
HOOVER: We've got to change this now!
BUCHANAN: Phil...
DONAHUE: Patrick?
BUCHANAN: Phil-Phil, Mexicans are dying on that border and Americans are dying on that border because the government of the United States lacks the moral courage to enforce the laws of the United States.
DONAHUE: Yes? Please.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Not everybody's coming into this country to pick crops for $2. We've got people coming into this country to terrorize our country. And I don't think that we can look at immigration simply from Arizona.
(APPLAUSE)
DONAHUE: Well, we didn't.
SHARPTON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) We have to have a policy that is defined, that is not restrictive, where we can have people deal in this country that are going to be productive. But we've got to secure the people in the country. I agree with Pat. We also have to deal with...
BUCHANAN: Good for you, Al!
SHARPTON: ... the domestic problem of the country.
BUCHANAN: Good for you!
SHARPTON: And I think that if we can deal with that in a non-selective way-we can't have different things for different people, different nationalities.
DONAHUE: Well, he's got you there, doesn't he, Patrick. We do appear to be...
BUCHANAN: Hey, Phil...
DONAHUE: ... biased towards some.
BUCHANAN: Sharpton for Democratic candidate!
SHARPTON: Why don't we have you Republican, me Democrat, and we can have a real American dialogue for once.
DONAHUE: Yes, sir?
BUCHANAN: OK!
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Phil. Phil, you better have al Sharpton go to Washington and sit down with President Bush. Let's get this job done, Al!
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
DONAHUE: Yes, they all-right. Well, let's just review here...
You wanted to say, Mrs. Eggle, please? Here is a woman who lost her son in the chaos of immigration, as a park ranger, doing his job, hit by a long gun down there in the middle of the desert. Yes, ma'am.
BONNIE EGGLE: Yes. He was 28 years old, Phil. He didn't deserve to die in that ghastly way.
DONAHUE: Right.
BONNIE EGGLE: He did not deserve a six-foot grave, but that's what he got because the people who could have made a difference in there cared not to do it.
DONAHUE: Those people being?
BONNIE EGGLE: Congress, the Department of the Interior, the National Park Service. They have chosen not to support the law enforcement. The past administrations have not done their job supporting law enforcement. And he was a good American, and he was protecting the United States of America and the citizens of this country.
DONAHUE: Right. Well, I...
AUDIENCE MEMBER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a sacrifice, a meaningful sacrifice...
DONAHUE: Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: ... will provoke some change here.
DONAHUE: His memory...
AUDIENCE MEMBER: We challenge you to get some congressmen on the...
DONAHUE: ... is honored if we do something to ensure that other people are not similarly situated.
I regret I have time only to thank you all very much for making this contribution to a very complex issue. Here's Chris Matthews and "HARDBALL."
END

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