Lou Dobbs Show - CNN -- December 17, 2003

Lou Dobbs Show with Roy Beck - CNN -- December 17, 2003

Segment featuring Roy Beck of Numbers USA

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ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now, "Broken Borders."

DOBBS: Tonight we take a look at one Connecticut town inundated with illegal aliens. The town of Danbury, Connecticut, was first brought to our attention by a viewer who had read about the town's problem in "The Hartford Courant." And as Bill Tucker now reports, it is a problem putting a strain on the city and its ability to deliver basic services to all its citizens.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are illegal alien day laborers in Danbury, Connecticut's, Kennedy Park, waiting to be picked up for work. It doesn't exactly fit with the traditional view of New England. But a lot about the city of Danbury is surprising. Officially, Danbury's home to 175,000 people and unofficially to another 15,000 illegal aliens. They were drawn by a strong economy and plentiful demand for cheap labor, word of which is talked about in communities as far away as Sao Paulo, Brazil. But the large number of illegal aliens is creating problems for the city and its taxpayers.

MAYOR MARK BOUGHTON, DANBURY, CONNECTICUT: It's a large health issue. Many of the young children that come here have not been immunized. We had -- we've had in years past cases of tuberculosis, cases of sort of third-world diseases that have -- people have not been inoculized against when they've come here to Connecticut, and we've had to deal with those. TUCKER: There is a lack of affordable housing for low-income workers, some people in town taking advantage of those workers by renting out their garages for $1,500 a month off the books.

(on camera): One of the places that the strain is the most evident is here in the city schools. Danbury High School is one of the largest in the state.

(voice-over): And voters are soon to be asked to approve a $55 million school bond to build a new elementary school and renovate the two existing middle schools. And there are additional demands placed on the police department.

CHIEF ROBERT PAQUETTE, DANBURY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, obviously, it does affect negatively the police department. There are many, many more demands that are placed on it. One of the biggest demands that we find, and one of the biggest problems that we find is communication.

TUCKER: On the typical arrest for minor offenses, the police don't ask about a person's legal status unless a serious crime is committed, the police chief saying doesn't have the time, manpower or jurisdiction to arrest illegal aliens. In other words, it's a federal problem.

BOUGHTON: I do think that the federal government has got to deal with this issue. In a post-9/11 world, it's critical to know who's among us. If 400 residents from a small town in Ecuador can come to Danbury, undocumented, unaccounted for and not tracked, think about how easy it can be for members of al Qaeda and terrorist cells to come into Danbury or any other community in the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: And because the federal government doesn't track them, doesn't count them, it is left to the taxpayers in Danbury and other local communities across the country to pick up the tab for the social services -- Lou.

DOBBS: And that's's the pattern we're seeing across the country.

TUCKER: Right.

DOBBS: People are shifting the burden and the cost to others. Growers, those hiring illegal aliens in the Southwest, are really saying to the taxpayer, You take care of the health benefits. You take care of the police burdens and education burdens. We're going to have cheap labor, and we're going to exploit the situation.

TUCKER: Exactly.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Tonight's "Face Off": Should those who break U.S. law by entering this country illegally be afforded the same rights as U.S. citizens? My guests tonight have two very different views as to the answer to the question. Ben Johnson is the director of the Immigration Policy Center at the Immigration Law Foundation. He says illegal aliens are simply vital to our economy. Roy Beck is the executive director of the NumbersUSA Education and Research Foundation and calls illegal immigration theft. Both join us tonight from our studios in Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.

ROY BECK, EXEC. DIR., NUMBERSUSA: Thank you.

BENJAMIN JOHNSON, DIR., IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: Thank you.

DOBBS: Let me ask you this to just start things out. Why should anyone who has broken the law to enter the country have any rights whatsoever?

JOHNSON: Well, I mean, it's less a question of rights and more a question of how do we deal with people who are coming here to do jobs that we need them to do. So -- and what's happening is states is very frustrated with the fact that the federal government won't effectively deal with the issue of undocumented immigration. And as a result, they're forced to issue driver's licenses to people because they know that if they don't issue driver's licenses to people, they're not going to go away, they're continue to drive on roads and they're going to continue to need educational services. So I mean, that's what drives this debate, is the fact that we have jobs that we want these people to fill, and we need to figure out a way to provide a legal status for them to be here to do that.

DOBBS: Roy?

BECK: Well, these are not jobs that we need foreign workers for. We don't need illegal workers. We've got 18 million Americans who cannot find a full-time job right now. The economy has adjusted to the fact that these 8 to 10 to 12 million illegal workers and their families are in the country, but it's been something that's been harmful for the economy as a whole.

There is much that the federal government can do and should do to help these cities. In the situation of the city that you just profiled, there is a bill, S-1906, before the Senate, and a companion bill in the House, that would require the federal government to come to any town in the country when a local policeman finds an illegal alien. Right now, the federal government will not pick up most illegal aliens when a policeman calls them.

DOBBS: Well, Roy, you know, police in this country can't even ask the question. That's an infringement of rights.

BECK: Well, there are some cities who have barred -- and I would say probably illegally -- have barred their policemen from asking the question. But these policemen are authorized by federal law to ask the question. These bills that are proposed do not require a policeman to ask about immigration status, but...

DOBBS: Well, Roy, what I'd say to you is why don't we -- why don't we have our Congress, if we're serious about this -- you know, the heck with the issue on the illegal alien and having hard-pressed law enforcement officers rounding up illegal aliens. Why don't we just slapping start stringent fines and penalties against those who hire illegal aliens?

BECK: Well, that -- yes, that would be very helpful. The federal government stopped doing that over 10 years ago, and this is one of the reasons why the immigrant population has ballooned, is because the federal government has stopped doing workplace enforcement.

DOBBS: Tom, let me ask you this. We have just heard -- Casey Wian reported last night from Los Angeles, California, a UCLA study, a UCLA professor urging that the state of California give illegal aliens the right to vote. As you know, Senator Gil Sedillo (ph) of California wants all illegal aliens to have driver's licenses. What is really going on there is really a very straightforward and not very subtle attempt to give immense political power to a group of people who are illegal in this country in one blanket, sweeping move, is it not?

JOHNSON: Well -- you're talking to me?

DOBBS: Yes.

JOHNSON: Yes. That's not -- I mean, it's clear from the Constitution that you have to be a citizen in order to vote in federal elections. And there's no question we need be careful about -- about diminishing the value of citizenship in this country. But for the most of the...

DOBBS: Well, why would we say "but" after that, Ben? I'm just -- we want...

JOHNSON: Because I think...

DOBBS: We don't want to diminish citizenship in this country, but -- what possibly could follow after you just made that statement?

JOHNSON: Well, what will follow after that is that for most of the history of this country prior to World War II, we do -- we have allowed non-citizens to vote in very local elections, and it didn't diminish the value of citizenship. I think that this is a question for local communities to decide. If local communities decide that they want non-citizens to be voting in local school board elections or very local small elections, as a way to begin to incorporate them into society, then I think that that's within the power of the local communities to do that.

DOBBS: My gosh!

JOHNSON: It's clear that...

DOBBS: Now, wouldn't that scare the dickens out of you? I mean, you're talking about turning over, effectively, immigration policy -- and by the way, it may be de facto already occurring in some of our border states, including California. You're saying, in effect, that a small community would have the opportunity, the power de facto to grant citizenship.

JOHNSON: No, that's not the case. Citizenship is very different from the ability to participate in local elections. There are lots of...

DOBBS: What would be the difference? If you're participating in a local election, what other right would you say citizenship should carry with it?

JOHNSON: Well, citizens...

DOBBS: It's the most precious right.

JOHNSON: It absolutely is the most precious right. Citizens are the only ones who can run for federal elected office. Citizens are the only ones who can vote in federal elections. Citizens never face the threat of deportation. If they commit some offense they're not going to face deportation. Those are all things that non-citizens can't do and risks that no-citizens face.

DOBBS: All right, Roy -- Ben, let me interrupt you. Roy, we -- we have just -- Bill Tucker has just reported from Danbury, Connecticut, a community of 70,000 people is really a community of about 90,000 people. No one seems to care, not national immigration authorities, not those charged with the responsibility. The fact is that a lot of people are employing those people. They're -- as Bill Tucker reported, rents are flowing in. And everybody's making a buck. What's wrong with this, Roy?

BECK: Well, illegal immigration's not a victimless crime in many ways. But No. 1, illegal immigrants steal wages. They steal from the wages of American workers, especially American workers that are in the occupations they compete with. And so it may be fine for the wealthy of the country and for the powerful of the country to put this on the backs of American workers, but these are wage thieves. Now, they may be nice people in other ways, but they're thieves. And you're exactly right that they've been able to kind of run roughshod.

I would say this, though, that there are improvements. As bad as things are, they're better than they were a year ago. The visa tracking bill that was passed in 2002 -- a number of the provisions have been implemented. We...

DOBBS: Well, first, Roy, we got to find out if it works. It doesn't start until the beginning of the year.

BECK: No, actually -- actually, a number of things have been implemented already, but the administration has already missed about a third of the deadlines. We have a report coming out tomorrow on that. So the administration is slower than it needs to be, but there are improvements.

The Congress just last month passed something, that will not go into effect for another year, that will allow every business in the country to just get on the phone and find out from the Social Security Administration whether a person they're hiring is illegal. This was not allowed -- it's not allowed even right now.

JOHNSON: Let me, if I can...

DOBBS: Sure. You get the last word, Ben.

JOHNSON: Yes. Let me...

DOBBS: Briefly.

JOHNSON: ... be very clear that illegal immigration is clearly a problem that we all want to solve. The question is, how do you solve the problem? And you can only solve the problem by coming at this from both the enforcement and from the immigration reform perspective. We've spent billions of dollars on immigration enforcement, and we've got more illegal immigration and more deaths at the border.

BECK: Enforcement at the border.

JOHNSON: What we need to do is now address the issue of a failed immigration policy. We've got to find way for these workers to come in to the United States legally, and then these problems will be addressed. We don't want illegal immigration, but we do want these workers in the United States in a legal status.

DOBBS: You know, what? I think the three of us just agreed on something. We need a national immigration policy that works. Do we all agree on that?

JOHNSON: Absolutely. But we can't have that by having enforcement policies only. We've got to have the political will...

DOBBS: We can't have that until people, Ben, start talking honestly about what they're trying to do, move the hidden agendas off the table, start talking straight, start looking at facts and being -- everybody be honest about what's happening in this country.

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: We don't have enforcement policy right now.

JOHNSON: I absolutely agree with that. But one of the things we...

DOBBS: Ben Johnson, Roy Beck, we thank you both. Come back, and we'll argue some more about this, as we continue this dialogue on immigration in this country. Thank you both.

Coming up next, we'll share some of your thoughts about the escalating problem of immigration, illegal immigration. And the United States signs a new trade agreement with Central American countries. The only problem is, it'll probably cost thousands of Americans their jobs. What's new? Lisa Sylvester reports. Stay with us.

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